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Post by brooksie on Feb 3, 2013 15:36:35 GMT -5
It was brought to my attention of a concern about an author on the list of authors to support. That author's name is Carroll Bryant. I was new to the issue and the name and had to look into the matter. Please, address any concerns and questions on this site. I valued that person's input and decided to look into the matter. Being a victim of a troll attack gives one more concern when hearing negative anything on someone else. I would hope that all of would take great care in researching others so accussed in having been victims ourselves. This is a wonderful blog post on the subject that I came across that I add for your perusal. In my opinion this person should have our support and I would hope-to seek legal action against the perps in this horrendous attack. This is a troll attack in full swing and violence. Please let me know what you think as well and please take care to KEEP it POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE in debate. We do not want anything resembling a troll attack on this site of safety. This is to promote a healthy debate on a concern. link: www.stopthegrbullies.com/2013/02/01/the-attack-on-carroll-bryant/#comment-2046If there is anything else you know on the subject for the debate, please let us know-but again, keep it constructive. Insults and degredation are not tolerated here. |
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Post by Admin on Feb 6, 2013 6:42:29 GMT -5
Pity the article doesn't have screenshots of how the issue started. I'm not personally familiar with this case and don't know the details, but it appears to be an issue over a relationship between a 49 year old man and 17/18 year old girl. Was it in person or just on the Internet?
The most relevant part of the article is this quote, "We’d like to stop here and take a brief moment to ask a simple question. What does this have to do with book reviews? Seriously! WHAT THE HELL does this have to do with book reviews?"
Followed closely by the screenshot that shows that the trolls refer to themselves as Reviewers even when there is no review involved, as if it were some sort of station or rank or gang name, and that they consider Goodreads 'their space'.
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Post by brooksie on Feb 7, 2013 19:08:50 GMT -5
I agree and the attack went above and beyond the average troll attack with this author. I heard negative and positive on him. It sounds horrible what he endured though. I wonder about that other issue you mentioned as to it's validity as well. Something to look into further if anything.
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 7, 2013 21:39:18 GMT -5
Hello brooksie, I have been reading the linked-to pages in regard to the attacks by troll reviewers against Carol Bryant. I too, have been a victim of attacks, similar to those he has endured. I'm newly registered and will be posting at this highly needed and greatly appreciated forum-venue. You and I corresponded recently on FB. I mention this, so that you know who I am. Thanks so much for directing me here. I hope to add something of value but I will mention that my posts may be sporadic at times, due to my constantly changing schedule.
Let me also introduce myself to the few but growing number of fellow members here, as an indie author who has been on the receiving end of attack-reviewers on several occasions and I feel badly for the almost certain hurt being experienced by authors like Carol Bryant. Unfortunately, the most violent onslaught I experienced, was also by a click of reviewers at the most well known social media reviews website. The sight has more good people who are members there than bad ones (an important fact to keep at the forefront) but small spin-offs of wolf pack reviewers have developed there and they are ruining the "Good"purposes of the website.
In my case, I was called an "a**hole", an "SOB" and I was told to "grow the f**k up", among other obscenities directed at me by reviewers, who claim to be members of a group whose intentions are to set authors straight, who behave badly. Instead however, some of them have developed into an attack group who take pleasure in bullying authors over bogus reasons. It has become a game of pleasure for these particular members there.
This is sad because this type of trend that continues to go unchecked, can become a growing problem that threatens indie publishing opportunities over time (this may be the design of some of them). Why do they want to do this? Your guess is as good as mine but one of the most evident reasons that I can see, is the fact that bullies now have a new venue to act out their frustrations and to pretend that the authors they attack, are the objects of their unhappiness.
Without sounding too psychological -- my not being a mental health professional, I believe it is obvious that it's basically the same bullying peer group phenomenon that has always existed in the world. Mean-hearted people are gravitating toward a new opportunity to injure people as peer groups, simply for the pleasure of it. Like anything of this nature that is not moderated and corrected, it will only allow these trends to grow. This is the reason I see genuine value in this website-forum and I hope to see more authors join the effort over time!
I thank you for taking this much needed stand against troll reviews attacks, on behalf of the indie authors like Carroll Bryant and me, who are on the receiving-end of them. Your effort is an encouragement!
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Post by writer23 on Feb 8, 2013 7:35:50 GMT -5
We have all been at the receiving end, sometimes for pretty much no reason at all. One member of the group has a private dispute with someone and they take it to the troll group and attack the author on that site.
These are people who need to feel they have power over people. Most of them are wannabe writers, or crappy writers. Mean mindedness plays a part, yes, but it's basically gang mentality and frustration that they are unlikely to ever be the writers they would like to be. Some are just followers and a bit simple.
I do not refer to these people as reviewers. They have not read or reviewed my books, they have only joined in a gang call to attack someone and don't have enough of a mind of their own to need a reason.
I review books as well. That doesn't make me a reviewer to someone I haven't read and it certainly doesn't make me one of their group.
I have never attacked a reviewer. I have had no personal argument with any of my attackers with one single exception. If they ever looked at some of her peripheral LiveJournal style blogs, they might catch on that she really is a mental case.
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Post by writer23 on Feb 8, 2013 7:44:59 GMT -5
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 8, 2013 13:07:05 GMT -5
I have no problem with the behaviors of these people, when they keep it inside their own realms. In other words, if they want to perpetrate trashy behaviors and use attack methods toward each other, I say "go forth and enjoy yourselves". They can call each other the most vile and obscene names that exist. They can indulge in the "contests of wits", 24/7 for all I care.
It's a different story however, when they blindside authors with these tactics -- people who have poured their hearts into their written works. That's when it becomes a violation that in many cases literally meets the definition covering illegal online harassment laws. They would of course laugh at my statements and claim that they are only expressing their freedom of expression and of speech. These freedoms however, are not supposed to be abused and there are endless examples of what is considered illegal speech and illegal expression.
When abuses of privileges involving freedom of speech and expression are unchecked, this opens the door for them to escalate in the negative direction and outside of the boundaries set for them. It's an example of the adage "give them an inch and they'll take a mile". This is the position sites like Goodreads are in. They don't want to ruffle any feathers by having stronger moderation in place -- so therefore, the trashy-minded folk, are going to push the limits and continue the downward spiral.
If more authors and the good members at Goodreads, don't take a stand against this trend, it will continue to degrade the reviews venue in general and it will cheapen the reputation of the publishing industry in general as well. This again would be statements laughed at by the wolf pack reviews groups but that is because there is nothing sacred with them. They want everything to cheapen -- it is their goal. If they can take everything down to a level of non-importance, this somehow makes them feel better about their selves.
We must continue to take a stand but we must do so while maintaining our own sense of morals and self-respect.
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Post by brooksie on Feb 9, 2013 13:16:11 GMT -5
I completely agree! For a new site this has already proven its value and has given wonderful support! I am glad you are on here and sincerely appreciate your support and valued advice. We do need to stick together and the more we have in support, the greater our stand will be!
The maliciousness has to stop for it has gone too far already! Yes, the more they create chaos and the more of us defend each other against it-the less power they will have on there. As far as the attacks going beyond to the point of destroying an author¡¦s good name and income-it has to stop and we hope to do that with this site and other venues. When it reaches the point as many have-there is a definite legal recourse to go through as it has reached slander and libel. However, with their blocked profiles-it is difficult to find and track down-as they know. The most we can do for now is to flag them and block them out on Goodreads and other venues.
The more authors that join this site will allow more options for our defense and protection as great minds converse in this safe forum. I see great things from this and applaud how brave and strong we all are in this stand. More authors who are gaining the confidence are finding the forum to share their knowledge and it is helping those still afraid to do so.
It is understandable to get a bad review-no issue there. Let the trolls act out their aggressions for I have them blocked for the most part and do not care. We are simply too busy to waste out time. As most of us are Indie authors-we deserve to have our time and our books out there with the respect that they deserve. It takes a lot to fight against the wind to bring your soul¡¦s work into the public as we all have. I admire that, as I know personally all that goes into each book! I do not know if it is also a bash on the Indie author that prompts the attacks, or if they are simply malicious at heart, or want publicity at all costs for their own shoddy books to wipe out the competition (Linda Hilton and Angela Horn are author trolls)¡K.Whatever, the reason, justice does always win in the end. I hope our stand will at least encourage those oppressed wrongfully to also be brave and to lend hope and encouragement as we are doing here. Thank you! ƒº
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Post by Admin on Feb 10, 2013 10:34:46 GMT -5
The trouble with Libel is that it costs a lot of money to pursue it. The guilt is clear but with international or even just interstate locations the travel cost alone to appear in court is prohibitive. They know this of course.
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 10, 2013 17:30:58 GMT -5
There are several other options regarding the Goodreads site specifically however, including sending a complaint to the BBB regarding defamatory, harassing online attacks or sending complaints to the IC3 or the FTC.
This might sound absurd at first glance however, Goodreads is allowing their publicly posted Terms of Use (TOU) to be violated in such a way as to come under the definition for violation of cyber bullying and internet harassment laws. Not upholding their TOU, is a form of false advertising.
The violating behaviors via Goodreads, goes even further than simply false advertising -- they are also breaking other laws. The comments directed at me on Goodreads for example, include members calling me an "a**hole", a "SOB" and telling me to "f**k off" and ALL OF THIS is being highly indexed on the search engines and the site administration is allowing it to remain live. Goodreads is literally hosting cyber bullies and internet harassers (illegal activity).
Here is a segment of the Goodreads TOS:
" You agree not to post User Content that: ... contains any information or content that we deem to be unlawful, harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, harassing, humiliating to other people (publicly or otherwise), libelous, threatening, profane, or otherwise objectionable"
When you read these 'terms of use' it is painfully obvious that Goodreads has completely dropped the ball -- likely for revenue purposes and they should be held accountable...period.
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 11, 2013 20:22:17 GMT -5
I would also mention that an online petition against the activities at Goodreads might be an option to seriously consider as well. It might in fact be a step that could be taken prior to turning in complaints at mediating bureaus, regarding violations of their own TOU.
Trying to send the administration there, letters or even one letter representing a number of authors, would likely be trash-filed by them and probably not read. This is why a petition might be of more effect if posted on an online page because they would be more on the spot to respond and would know that the public would expect them to.
Actually, an even better idea to start with, would be to post an online letter to them. If sincerely written in a business-like manner, they might actually repond to it. One thing for certain is that it would become highly indexed online, just as the attacks on our books by Goodreads members are being highly indexed.
I may work something up and place it on a Google Blogger site and go from there.
Do you fellow members think this might be a step to take?
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Post by brooksie on Feb 11, 2013 20:32:35 GMT -5
I think that is a wonderful idea!  |
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Post by writer23 on Feb 12, 2013 7:56:00 GMT -5
It's worth a shot. I have another new 1 star from a private profile with a photo giving the finger. On all my books of course. Somebody is really putting time and effort into voting my books down.
What a pathetic person.
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 12, 2013 13:51:26 GMT -5
writer23, I'm so sorry to hear about that attack on your books! Real professional reviewing at work  ! It is Goodreads who should be ashamed for not immediately removing those type reviews/comments. As for the people who post them -- God help them, they are sick. If allowed to continue, this type thing will forever change the social media reviews industry and it will degrade the publishing industry in general. This statement would be laughed at by some but it's undeniably heading that direction full speed ahead already (they are not paying attention to the obvious). Give me some time guys because I'm also in contact directly with Amazon and B&N on this very issue. I've hit them both up with business letters via email that are posed in such a way that they will need to respond to them. Certainly I'm not putting them on the spot anymore than they already should be via both of their TOS's on reviews. Their reviews moderating staff are letting reviews full of attack language, insults and harassment slip past them and I have no idea why. The reviews I refer to, VERY DEFINITELY meet the definition for TOS violations. I have tremendous gratitude for both bookseller's websites but their moderation of reviews, is not matching...not meeting the need for update that the negative reviews trend is presenting the need for. I will follow up with an update, once these two most-major booksellers reply to my queries. Stay tuned..... |
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TroJ
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Post by TroJ on Feb 16, 2013 17:53:18 GMT -5
Well, I heard back from the BIG TWO booksellers -- Amazon and B&N.
This is the response in black/italics, that I received from a query I sent to Amazon because of attack reviews directed at me, via reviews posted on my books:
Hello,
I've read the reviews mentioned in your message for the book titles. I understand your concerns, but these reviews don't violate our posted guidelines, so I'm unable to remove them in their current format.
However, as the author of this title, you can provide feedback about these reviews by voting or commenting on them. To vote, click the "Yes" or "No" buttons next to "Was this review helpful to you?" To comment, click the Comments link at the bottom of each review.
We try to encourage our customers to give their honest opinions on our products while staying within our guidelines. As a retailer we are interested in cultivating a diversity of opinion on our products. Part of that is allowing our customers to air their honest thoughts on items they have received. Here's a link to our guidelines for reference:..."
Following was my response to the reply (in blue), below:
Hello Customer Service,
Your response is what I was expecting, due to what I have been seeing develop on Amazon over the past couple of years.
Some of the allowed, unmoderated reviews are directing insulting, harassing, derogatory and defamatory remarks, directly at the auhors (personal attacks). A book review is supposed to be a review of a customer's experience with "the book".
I have never been against 1-star reviews, when a customer expresses dissatisfaction honestly. The reviewers in this case, are from the "Goodreads" website. I have confirmed this with other sources. They have a vendetta to attack anyone who questions their cyber bullying, attacking reviews.
You are doing your job and you are keeping buying customers happy with what they choose to do on the Amazon site but they have already successfully degraded it, due to the "blind eye" toward attack reviews. Because of these current allowances, they will continue to push the edge of guidelines acceptability because they see this weakness in the Amazon guidelines and the allowances that actually do violate your guidelines but that at times you choose not to see.
I believe there are more reasons for this than I have already stated but I don't believe my opinions for why you are allowing trash reviews, meets the definition of "a conspiracy" as some authors opinions do (apart from obvious conspiracies by groups at Goodreads). I believe it is simply a matter of trying to keep as many customers happy, who shop at Amazon, as possible by giving permissive interpretations -- somewhat of a slant on what your guidelines for reviews, allows (e.g. "Obscene or distasteful content" "Profanity or spiteful remarks" -- Amazon Reviews Guidlines).
Over time I absolutely assure you that Amazon will see reciprocal damage from the author bashing trend that you are allowing. I again will say that even serious displeasure expressed about a book is understandably allowed and I agree with you for allowing them but when reviews are aimed as personal attacks at authors, this is unacceptable by any reasonable standard.
Thank you for your response.
Sincerely,
My Signature
In regard to the query I sent to B&N, they stated the following (shown in black/italics):
Hello,
The Review Moderation Department will determine in its sole discretion if any Customer Reviews on your product page violate the Barnes & Noble Customer Review Rules. Please be aware that negative reviews do not necessarily violate the Customer Review Rules.
If the Review Moderation Department finds any Customer Reviews on your product page(s) that violate the Rules, they will be removed.
Please visit the page linked below for details regarding the Barnes & Noble Customer Review Rules:..."
Both of the bookseller site reps who answered as shown above, used form-letter type responses (pre-written for mass-mailing) but in spite of that, I do believe they both checked into my issue regarding attack reviews. I feel that B&N is moderating reviews better than Amazon is. I didn't see any need in replying to B&N.
I did at least try to add my two cents worth, into the debate about 'what is allowed in reviews', in my queries and replies to the BIG TWO site reps. All I have left is to continue speaking out through every venue possible. If more authors begin doing this, it absolutely will make a difference and possibly lead to better moderation of reviews at Amazon, who currently feels their moderation is strict enough (I strongly disagree).
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! It is Goodreads who should be ashamed for not immediately removing those type reviews/comments. As for the people who post them -- God help them, they are sick. If allowed to continue, this type thing will forever change the social media reviews industry and it will degrade the publishing industry in general. This statement would be laughed at by some but it's undeniably heading that direction full speed ahead already (they are not paying attention to the obvious).